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Desolation Row
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BeitragThema: Issue to Clear Up   21.08.12 21:57

An attentive GM has brought the following point up to me:

If our fine league has a 48 hour, ESPN driven trade review period, how can we entertain any trades on the fly during our draft without slowing the process down immensely?

Thoughts?
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Fire & Fury

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   22.08.12 6:39

Just let the co-commissioners sign off on the trade, whichever one is first to look it over. Usually one of you is online. Why do you think you have all these POWERS!?
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Arthur Tigers SCOOPnRED

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   23.08.12 23:52

Sounds good to me. We've got a good bunch of managers, so sped up trades will be all right.

SCOOP
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   24.08.12 15:39

I'm good with that.
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Desolation Row
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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   24.08.12 16:16

Well fellers.......

Looking like a lockout.

Any interest in shifting the start of our draft forward a bit?
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   25.08.12 13:53

I'm fine with shifting it forward. But if we shift it too far forward it will be difficult for me to do it, as by October I will be very busy with a new book launch and almost non-stop travel.

What about the middle or end of September.

I'm also fine with doing it after labor day and then just sitting on our rosters. If the full season is a lock-out we can simply drop the players we drafted and re-do at the beginning of next year, thereby shifting all 2012 draft picks to 2013. We should make sure to keep track of who owns all the draft picks from this year in case we need to have a re-do.
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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   25.08.12 19:39

I think I would prefer to go ahead as planned. Teams
Have already dropped players that perhaps
They would not have dropped if they had another few weeks
Before the deadline.
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   25.08.12 21:52

I'm fine with the drops made being final, whether or not we have to re-do the draft next year. By then Bernier could very well have been traded and would have more value.
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Shoreside Snipers

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   26.08.12 9:18

i'm good to go ahead as planned,
Lockout or no Lockout


If we do draft teams and there is a lockout, can we still trade players? or picks?
or we just gonna freeze our teams till hockey starts again?
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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   26.08.12 10:41

i missed that comment matt said about redrafting if a lockout cancels the entire season.

this should be something voted on and put in the league manefesto in the future.

for example, i traded away a bunch of top picks for this years draft knowing that there was a good chance of a lockout. But if the season is cancelled and a redraft (using 2012 pick in 2013) occurs then there would be double the prospects making the draft much more deeper and thus making those picks in this draft much more valuable. if i knew there was a chance of this i may not have traded away those picks.

also going ahead as planned allows us to continue to trade even during the lockout.
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   26.08.12 12:42

Interesting points Brandon. It can be said, however, that it would be equally unfair for managers who acquired those picks not to have the benefit of using them for an ACTUAL NHL season. I know I have acquired extra picks with that in mind, and lock-out or no lock-out I would like to be able to use them and benefit from them.

In the end, everybody can only have 25 roster players and 5 prospects on their team to start the season, which is different than an actual NHL team that can simply acquire more prospects in a 2013 draft without having to drop any from 2012.

Perhaps the quality and quantity of the prospects would go up because we would have two year's worth to choose from, but that could also be seen as a positive for those with less/lower draft picks, because their would be higher-quality players remaining later in the draft.

To be honest, I would be surprised if the lock-out lasted the entire season like last time, but it's good to discuss options ahead of time.
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Juggernauts

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   26.08.12 13:54

My two cents would be that we draft like the season is a go and if it's not then we all stay in the same position and next year would still be 2013 draft and we keep the same number of keepers as for this seasons rules and put our newly voted season rules in for after 2013.
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Chris Catrini

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   26.08.12 22:45

I agree with keeping the 2012 draft intact. Our seaon is upon us for better or worse, we made our trades, and our drops and we all saw this strike as a possibliity. Whether we like it or not this is he 2012 fantasy hockey season and 2013 should stand on its own, not be a blend of any sort. I am in the unfortunate position of having a later pick but understand the likelihood that I may be selecting at the bottom two years in a row with no NHL season to recalibrate the final standings. Such is life in the wonderful world of fantasy hockey.
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Desolation Row
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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   27.08.12 14:13

Well said Chris.

I could not have said it any better.

G
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Desolation Row
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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   27.08.12 14:16

Well, perhaps I could have said it a touch better, but nevertheless.......

you nailed it!!
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   27.08.12 14:31

Sorry to disagree again, but a full-year lock-out would actually help anybody who has traded away draft picks. So anybody that has made a trade that has included draft picks being traded away to upgrade a player will basically be in a position where they are not giving away any value for those player upgrades. Because they would just have their picks returned to them the following season. I would feel gyped because I am one of those GMs who has diligently traded players and prospects for extra 2012 picks over the last many months. It never occurred to me that our fine league would vote to wipe out all of that value if a lock-out should occur. Why would we do that?

In the real NHL, teams can carry over the prospects they choose from 2012 and keep them, whereas we will not be able to do that. So, for example, if the Toronto Maple Leafs were to trade their first round pick in 2012 to the Boston Bruins in exchange for a player, the Bruins would have an extra first round pick in 2012.

In a lock-out scenario the Bruins would draft TWO first round picks in 2012 and get to keep both players.

Unfortunately, in our league we can only draft 30 players to start a season, so under the rules stipulated by Brandon and Chris, all draft picks would reset to normal (ie. teams would lose extra draft picks) and the Bruins would only get one first-round pick, whereas the Maple Leafs would still have the benefit of enjoying the player they traded or upgraded for.

Obviously there is no perfect comparison between the NHL and our fantasy hockey league, but the fairest thing in my mind would be to simply switch over the draft picks from 2012 to 2013 unless you want to reverse a bunch of trades. There are some trades I likely would not have done if I thought there was any chance of losing those extra draft picks.
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Chris Catrini

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   27.08.12 15:47

I understand your point COMPLETELY!!! I too traded Spezza for prospects and picks this season ( which I would not have done under the current enviorment). But ( I hate the b u t word, nothing good ever follows), It doesn't change any of the facts on the upcoming season. All the players I traded for could end up being Radulovs ...and that was my choice to make those deals. Do NOT think for one minute I am a fan of this strike , lockout, sit in ...what ever it is... I WANT HOCKEY! BUT for every concession made for one guy , it can hurt or disadvantage another in this case.
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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   27.08.12 22:14

i feel that in our scenario we are just going with the norm. and continuing with the drafts regardless of a lockout. (which we will not know the full outcome until closer to the end of the season). to me this seems like what is the correct thing to do and what was expected by the league members.

in your scenario you want to do the draft and if there is a lockout for the full season reverse the draft and move the 2012 picks to 2013. that is a huge stipulation and im not sure how this could be expected by anyone to think this would be an option this season without advanced notice.



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Desolation Row
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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 0:26

My thinking on the matter:

Move forward with the draft with the assumption that the season will begin either on time, or with some delay. Should the season be a total loss, then so be it. It would be a shame naturally, but that is a risk that is associated with pro sports in this day and age. To reverse our draft, and move the 2012 picks to 2013, and the 2013 picks to 2014 seems very laborious to me.

All this lockout business could make the draft even more interesting than normal actually. Does a GM deal some 2012 picks in exchange for 2013 picks in a gamble that there is, indeed, a full season lockout? Does a GM focus a bit more energy on prospects in the off chance there is indeed a full season lockout?

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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 3:09

It wouldn't be laborious to transfer draft picks from 2012 and 2013 to 2013 and 2014. Here's how we would do it:

1a) Should the lock-out last all season, drop all the players we drafted in this year's draft. We can always redraft the exact same players the following year if we want.

1b) If we wish to allow trades during the season, I would be fine with altering the above proposal slightly to drop an equivalent number of players to what we did this year before the 2013 draft begins. I say this because it's likely we wouldn't have the exact same players as we drafted, as some of them might have been included in a trade.

2) Keep the current draft charts after the draft as a reference point. Should a lock-out last all season, we simply go off of these again. Easy peasy.

The only thing that would really change would there would be one additional year of prospects to choose from during the draft.

To me this seems a lot fairer than simply wiping out the draft picks that were traded in good faith. While I knew a lock-out was a possibility, I figured our fine league would deal with the situation in a more equitable manner than what is currently being proposed by some. It's pretty clear to me that some GMs would benefit greatly from a year-long lock-out, while others would lose a great deal.

I'm interested to hear what Ray has to say. He's in a similar situation as I am, having traded a lot of value for 2012 picks.
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Shoreside Snipers

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 8:33

I'm having a problem even understanding what your talking about Matt?
you made moves last year for picks this year, which you will still be able to use? There is still value in most of your 2012 picks.
II mean how many free agents are there out there right now that woudl take a keeper spot away from someone else on your team? maybe 1 or 2? a lockout isn't going to stop that

Say you get Nail Yakupov, you plug him in as a prospect and bam 2013 starts your got Yakupov plus another draft to better your team again.

To go ahead with the draft and go ahead with trades only to find out the whole season is locked out. To go back and drop all the players your drafted plus reverse all the trades you made sounds like a lot of work.

I dont think there is any real clear advantage to any GM/Team in this league if a lockout happens.
Some people made moves in order to better there team in 2012, others put them in a position to make a move in 2013.




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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 14:54

Let me explain myself better using an example from our league. To be specific, lets look at the trade between Soo Storm and Buffalo Cab Co. on April 20th.

Soo Storm Gets

Claude Giroux-RW-Philadelphia
Duncan Keith-D-Chicago
4 RD-Sept12 (Desolation Row)
6 RD-Sept12 (Buffalo Cab Co.)
7 RD-Sept12 (Buffalo Cab Co.)

for

Buffalo Cab Co. Gets

Gabriel Landeskog-LW-Colorado
1 RD-Sept12 (Soo Storm)
1 RD-Sept12 (Garden River Gamblers)
2 RD-Sept12 (Fitzy Stars)
2 RD-Sept13 (Buffalo Cab Co.)
4 RD-Sept13 (Soo Storm)

I don't think it's hard to see that Claude Giroux and Duncan Keith are HUGELY more valuable than Gabriel Landskog. The only reason Ray was willing to do this trade was because two first round picks and a second round pick from Sept 2012 were included in the trade.

Now, as long as their is an NHL season in 2012-13, Ray will receive some benefit from these Sept 2012 picks he acquired that will allow him to compete this year.

HOWEVER, if there is a full-season lockout in 2012-13 what is now being proposed is that Ray would STILL only be able to keep 10 players (ie. he wouldbn't be able to keep any more players than what he has this year), PLUS he would basically lose these three very high draft picks for NOTHING. Looking at what Brandon has proposed, he would make out like a bandit. Ray would get far less than what he thought he was receiving for two of the best and most proven players in the league.

That to me seems very very unfair, and I am pretty certain Ray would not have done this trade without those three picks as part of the deal.

As a league we did not discuss what might happen in the event of a lockout, but similar to me, I'm sure Ray made the deal under the assumption we would make a reasonable adjustment in draft picks if a full-year lockout were to happen. Basically, something that would respect the intent of the trade between Brandon and Ray so that one of them doesn't end up the huge winner and the other the huge loser.

In my case, I've put together a number of trades to acquire extra draft picks. I have two third round picks, two fourth round picks and three fifth round picks. That's an additional four picks in the first five rounds that will make my team much more competitive during the current draft year. Under what is being proposed, should a full-year lockout ensue, I would basically lose those four extra draft picks that I've traded for over the last year or so. Again, since we had not discussed what would happen in the event of a full-year lock-out, I just assumed a fair solution would be found for everyone involved so that none of the teams bear the largest brunt of losing the entire season.

I reiterate:

1) Let's do the draft in September of this year. If there is a full or partial NHL season, we carry on as normal. No problem. Everyone benefits from their intended trade decisions and gets to use the draft picks in this year's competition.

2) If there is a full-year lockout, we revert to the same number of keepers as we all have for the 2013-14 season. One week before the 2013-14 draft we choose our keepers and drop the rest of our players.

If people feel this gives those with high draft picks an unfair advantage, I'm happy to disallow trades for this year and force people to drop everyone they drafted in 2012 (ie. whoever drafted Yakopov would have to drop Yakopov) and then give them the chance to re-draft the same picks in 2013.

3) We keep the draft charts that we have right now and simply carry them over to next year, so we would all have the chance to receive fair value for the trades we've made. We would get to use those draft picks as they were intended and would receive fair value that conforms to intended spirit of each trade. This is easy peasy. I'm not sure why a couple of you feel this is so complicated.

In any case, I am looking forward to receiving feedback from Ray as he is one of the ones who would suffer most from what Brandon initially proposed.





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Shoreside Snipers

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 15:09

Thanks Matt, That was defintely easier to understand.
I did not intend for my lasy message to be rude or anything like that either, just in case it sounded like it. I was just confused lol.

Now as for this heated debate, the only problem i see is that yes Matt and Ray both made some big moves in order to get some quality picks for the 2012 draft. But also Brandon and I have made moves involving 2012 picks to make our teams better as well. Its like the oposite end of the spectrum here. So whos right?
If i had known there was a gonna be a lockout, would I have traded away most of my 2012 picks, basically meaning i would have no picks in 2012 and 2013. I also might have reconsidered that.
Obviously the lockout is gonna cause a problem. I think the only fair solution is to have a vote. Whatever the outcome is should be the decision.
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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 15:13

in the end im not really proposing anything new. just 2012 picks are used in 2012, and 2013 picks are used in 2013. we all knew a lockout was coming and we all knew what happened last time. if you were expecting some huge stipulation of a redraft this should have been brought up at latest last off season.

if i were the one acquiring picks in this draft i just wouldn't assume that the league would do a redraft and bring it up a week before the draft.

im fine with what matt is proposing if it was implemented with notice.
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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 16:24

also heres a situation that could occur in matts scenario

say you pick up a prospect in the tenth round this draft, then he goes nuts this year in the CHL or AHL (while the lockout is going on). if we have to do a redraft you will have to drop that prospect and he will likely get picked up way before the tenth round in next years draft resulting in that team losing out on player that you they had a feeling could really step up his game this year.

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