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Arthur Tigers SCOOPnRED

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Location : Arthur, Ontario
Registration date : 27.08.08

BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 17:30

Draft.
No season.
Drop players.
Draft.

That's how it goes.
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Soo Storm

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Registration date : 27.08.08

BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 17:47

Arthur Tigers SCOOPnRED schrieb:
Draft.
No season.
Drop players.
Draft.

That's how it goes.


whats happens if you make a trade involving one of those players selected in this years draft
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Fitzsy Stars

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Number of posts : 3578
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Registration date : 21.08.08

BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 19:30

Soo Storm schrieb:
also heres a situation that could occur in matts scenario

say you pick up a prospect in the tenth round this draft, then he goes nuts this year in the CHL or AHL (while the lockout is going on). if we have to do a redraft you will have to drop that prospect and he will likely get picked up way before the tenth round in next years draft resulting in that team losing out on player that you they had a feeling could really step up his game this year.


I think it is fair to say that this is a pretty minor concern compared to the investment Ray, for example, made when he traded away Giroux and Keith for Landskog and some high picks. No solution is going to be 100% perfect.

Let's stop and take a look at what would happen in the NHL (or a court of law for that matter). A lot of emphasis is put on the intention of both parties and exchange of fair value in a business deal when examined by the law.

A minor hockey-related example of this happening in a draft scenario is when Cherapanov died due to a heart condition a few years ago. The NHL felt it was within the Rangers rights to receive some kind of compensation for that tragedy. Why? This was a freak accident and it could have been argued that it was just tough luck for the Rangers. But the NHL obviously felt it was a big enough loss that the Rangers should get something for it. Their intention had ben to draft a young and healthy player, but obviously they didn't end up with one despite due diligence.

Regarding "intention," when the Giroux/Keith/Landskog trade was made between Ray and Brandon, there was undoubtedly assumed an intention and, as an act-of-good-faith between the two parties, that a certain value would be exchanged for a certain value, regardless of whether a lock-out were held.

Again, we are not NHL teams that can simply keep players and prospects from both draft years (and thus receive SOME value). This is fantasy hockey, and our rules only allow us to have thirty players on our roster at the beginning of every season. For this reason we have to come up with a fair and equitable solution for everybody. You could just as easily have raised this issue in public if you were unsure about the outcome Brandon. And in fact it sounds like you were one of the few to be thinking about this since you were actively trading away draft picks. I would say the onus should have been on you to bring this up and clarify how the league would handle this situation in the event of a lock-out, rather than make a deal in good faith with Ray and then simply assume he'll lose all of those top draft picks should a full-season lock-out come to pass.

I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just saying that it works both ways. If you were unsure, you should have checked with everyone before making an assumption.

Regardless, we have to come up with a solution, and I think I may have come up with something that will appease everyone. It's not 100% perfect, but I think it might be the closest thing we'll be able to get under the circumstances.


SCENARIO #1

The most ideal scenario, as suggested before, is that the NHL and NHLPA signs a deal and we have a full or partial season. We carry on as normal.


SCENARIO #2

If there's is a full season lock-out, here's my suggestion:

1) We draft in September of this year, as planned.

2) We can trade players and prospects freely throughout the season, as well as 2014 picks. There should probably be a moratorium on trading 2013 picks.

3) When August 2013 roles around, we drop players based on the current standings and the number of keepers allowed for each team.

4) We run a random draft program that will assign draft position randomly for next year, thereby ensuring that we all have the same chance of receiving a high draft pick. This ensures that Brandon's concern is dealt with -- that being that GMs who pick high this season will NOT get to pick high two years in a row. Under this option, it's just as likely that anyone could receive a high draft pick next year.

5) Those who have traded for extra draft picks in September 2012 will receive extra picks to compensate them based on draft order (ie. Ray would get three first round picks, but they would be positioned based on where the random draft program slots Soo Storm, the Gamblers and Desolation Row). Likewise with anybody who has extra picks in other rounds.

This would ensure that those who traded for those extra picks are receiving some value back for them, as had been the intention when each of those deals was agreed upon by both parties.

As mentioned, there is no perfect solution to this problem. However, I feel this solution would strike a reasonable balance, and would allow us to trade relatively freely during the lock-out (with the exception of Sept 2013 picks).

I believe Ray is in Hawaii right now, but I look forward to hearing from him when he gets back.
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Desolation Row
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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 23:37

Well, this is a hot topic for certain. An interesting one as well.

Why not simply do the following:

Hold our draft as planned beginning after Labour Day. Should a lockout occur and last the entirety of the season, we allow each team additional keepers heading into next years September draft. How many? I am flexible. I would be happy with anywhere from 5-10 to be honest. This should satisfy Matt, this should satisfy Brandon and this should satisfy everyone in between.

It is simple. It is fair.

Queue the Chariots of Fire soundtrack....


Zuletzt von Desolation Row am 28.08.12 23:40 bearbeitet; insgesamt 1-mal bearbeitet
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Arthur Tigers SCOOPnRED

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Age : 52
Location : Arthur, Ontario
Registration date : 27.08.08

BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   28.08.12 23:40

I'm worried you create as many problems by intervening, as you solve.

We all knew that the strike could happen.

Those drafting in this draft, will have their rosters fill out, in the same fashion as normal. The only difference, is that come next summer, you will have new variables to determine how your players progressed. Some will have remained in Junior, or have played over seas. The AHL will have a record high level of play (like they did in the last strike). You end up evaluating with the information you have at hand. Yes, older guys that didn't play, have their value suffer. Some players get squeezed, and miss out on that season of development. So, the end of the season comes, and you evaluate your team, the same as you would any year, just with a different judging system. It all works out.

Last time there was a strike, in my other pool, we didn't do anything special. Things proceeded as normal. Draft picks were still traded as normal. We needn't be scared.
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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   29.08.12 8:09

So scoop what are you in favor of? Seem like last post you want to continue as normal but a
Few posts above it sounded like you wanted a redraft if
Their is full lockout.

Someone want to start a
Poll so we can get this figured out and we can start planning for the draft accordingly
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Shoreside Snipers

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   29.08.12 8:13

This is true, we should get this figured out soon
I'll start the poll
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Arthur Tigers SCOOPnRED

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   29.08.12 10:14

Definitely proceed as normal.
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Fitzsy Stars

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Registration date : 21.08.08

BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   29.08.12 11:05

Arthur Tigers SCOOPnRED schrieb:
I'm worried you create as many problems by intervening, as you solve.

We all knew that the strike could happen.

Those drafting in this draft, will have their rosters fill out, in the same fashion as normal. The only difference, is that come next summer, you will have new variables to determine how your players progressed. Some will have remained in Junior, or have played over seas. The AHL will have a record high level of play (like they did in the last strike). You end up evaluating with the information you have at hand. Yes, older guys that didn't play, have their value suffer. Some players get squeezed, and miss out on that season of development. So, the end of the season comes, and you evaluate your team, the same as you would any year, just with a different judging system. It all works out.

Last time there was a strike, in my other pool, we didn't do anything special. Things proceeded as normal. Draft picks were still traded as normal. We needn't be scared.

I always enjoy receiving your perspective on issues Scoop, in large part because of your vast fantasy hockey experience. However, based on your reply, I wonder if you read in detail what we are debating here. I think you might not understand what it is that I am arguing for.

I totally agree with you that the value of players/prospects will rise or fall during a lock-out. That is to be expected. But that has nothing to do, really, with what I was arguing for.

The only issue I have is that trades for draft picks were made based on those draft picks having a certain value: that was the intent of both parties when they made a certain trade based on our current league rules. With a lock-out situation, many of those draft picks will have no value if the season does not come to pass and we are forced to drop the players we drafted at those positions and then lose the draft picks the following year. That is all that I am arguing.
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   29.08.12 11:07

Desolation Row schrieb:
Well, this is a hot topic for certain. An interesting one as well.

Why not simply do the following:

Hold our draft as planned beginning after Labour Day. Should a lockout occur and last the entirety of the season, we allow each team additional keepers heading into next years September draft. How many? I am flexible. I would be happy with anywhere from 5-10 to be honest. This should satisfy Matt, this should satisfy Brandon and this should satisfy everyone in between.

It is simple. It is fair.

Queue the Chariots of Fire soundtrack....

This could be another way around the issue. It would satisfy me and I have the feeling it would satisfy Ray, who would have the most to lose from having to drop all of the players he drafts with his high picks this year.

We would have a much shorter draft next year, but that is fine with me.
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Juggernauts

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   29.08.12 11:15

I can see the pain this is going to cause. I would suggest we do the draft as normal and if there is no season then why do a redraft anyway? just keep everyone and next year do a 2 or three round draft and push the official 2013 draft to 2014. I don't know whether the draft should be in order from last season or random but i think this could solve everyones issues.

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Juggernauts

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   29.08.12 11:20

I guess it's very similar to Gregs Idea.... so sorry greg I just stole your idea. Although I do think we should just keep everyone. no sense in doing two drafts for one seasn.
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   29.08.12 11:21

Juggernauts schrieb:
I can see the pain this is going to cause. I would suggest we do the draft as normal and if there is no season then why do a redraft anyway? just keep everyone and next year do a 2 or three round draft and push the official 2013 draft to 2014. I don't know whether the draft should be in order from last season or random but i think this could solve everyones issues.


I would also be open to this. Very similar to Greg's idea.

So if there's a full-season lockout we simply keep all of the players we drafted from Sept 2012. It would mean a very short draft next September, but is an equally fair way to go about things. It would also mean that we could trade players/prospects/draft picks all season long without an inhibitions.
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Arthur Tigers SCOOPnRED

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BeitragThema: Re: Issue to Clear Up   30.08.12 20:44

In theory, the league balances at the time of the coming draft. So the value of the picks is re-couped at that time...

Anyway. I think wisest strategy is to let the natural nature of things look after itself. Each team will have difficult decisions to deal with next year. The one thing that makes some sense to me, would be have increase the number of prospects, for that one year only. Basically, in theory everyone stalks about five prospects. So, if we all had some extra prospect slots, we'd more a less be covered. Basically have two years worth of prospects.... (thinking out loud here).

Should we do a re-draft, everyone keep 15 + prospects, or 20 plus prospects... we'd be ditching a few of the old boys and those marginal guys (anticipated bounce back guys or bloomers that we took this year) would be tossed back. The top half dozen picks from two NHL drafts would be enthusiastically reviewed.

Good news though boys, they're posturing right now. The owners have got to be salivating at the players offer. Within about a month, they'll announce an agreement. I don't think the sticking points are nearly so cumbersome this time as they were the year the league shut down. The revenue streams have been increasing at an amazing pace. To shut it down, would set them back a season or two. Neither side wants that. Owners and players would lose a LOT of money.
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