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Chris Catrini

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 0:19

Greg, the points you made when implementing this rule were never meant to create an unfair outcome, however, being you are the author of the rule you should be the first to recognize its flaws and want to fix them.

To state the obvious that it was posted and voted on shows less concern about the problem at hand and pushes me to believe you are ok with the outcome because nobody caught the flaw when it was developed.

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Chris Catrini

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 0:30

I had worst record , 3rd worst in points, and forced to beat best team in league to maintain my horrible season......hmmmm

Ray was equally bad ...and he is lucky enough to lose 3 keepers and draft eighth.

Sorry if you feel bad...
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Desolation Row
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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 0:53

You can see what happens when you race into a thread screaming at the top of your lungs and pointing fingers.

It never works.

Everyone seems to turn into a two year old again.


Let's get down to the business at hand shall we:

What are you proposing as a solution?

I ask all other GM's the same question.

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Chris Catrini

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 1:16

Let's not run into the same problem we had before. I am open to suggestions, being that any adjustments from here would be selfishly benefitting me I may not be best suited to decide what new proposals should be administered.

The obvious issues at hand are loss of keepers and picking at a lower than seeded position.

4 teams are not impacted by this rule directly.

6 teams have been reshuffled based upon the results of playoff finishes NOT the season standings.

Let's first decide what matters more.... The season or the finals for draft and keeper quantity.

If it is the season than my first suggestion is to weigh the draft and number of keepers by the final standings order.

If it is the finals we wish to count more than I suggest we be reseeded by no worse that 1 draft position and NOT alter the keeper quantity more than that 1 slot adjustment would create.

Keeping in mind that you initial problem was to motivate the level of interst in the playoffs and prevent dumping for an extra keeper slot.
The draft is where we build, those keepers and picks are why we trade, to allow an 8th seeded playoff team having to beat the best team that giving season to keep those building tools does not match what we were voting on. Let's bring the rule back to center.

Sorry for being a jerk earlier....very frustrating. The season was bad enough.
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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 1:22

Now we are rolling in the right direction my friend.

Getting some good ideas out there.

Unfortunately, I am about to pass out over here from sleep deprivation and intense contact dermititis.

Ending on a good note though.

More tomorrow.
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 2:03

First, I would like to thank Greg for keeping a cool head during this rather intense discussion. I have always admired that about you Greg, and it's one of the reasons you make such a great commissioner of our fine league.

I'm in a bit of a difficult place here because, I believe, I was the one GM who voted against this rule from the start. For one, it's too damn complicated to understand IMHO -- evidenced by the fact that nobody foresaw this strange and rather unfair outcome. I tend to agree with Ray and Chris that the small incentive to lose for positioning is a rather minor concern compared to a drafting outcome that results in such an unfair discrepancy.

To be honest, I think we should just keep it simple and pretty much stick with what we had before. It's easy to understand and it's how draft orders are calculated in most leagues. If there comes a problem in the future where people are obviously tanking (ie. starting injured players or prospects who aren't playing much in favour of healthy, productive players), then we can do something about it then. But I think we can (and should) rely on the honor code to assume people are going to start their best team for every match-up, the same way our trading system is based on the honor code.

I know your intentions were good when you came up with this idea Greg, but I think it's obvious the implications were little understood when our league voted upon it.

Again, I'd encourage us to go back to how we calculated draft order during the first few years, or some variation whereby the bottom two teams flip a coin (or something like that) to see who gets the top pick.

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Shoreside Snipers

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 9:10

I agree with Ray and Chris on this one.
I techinically finished last this year, but got 2nd pick which to me didnt make sense at the time.
I finished last cause of total points for and head to head record, but i got 2nd overall pick because of Total Points Against.

That being said Greg is not the one to blame here, if the vote was 9-1 in favour of the new way then we are all to blame.

But this is definitely a topic that should be discussed again.
I would vote to go back to old way


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Fire & Fury

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 9:39

First of all, I wasn't blaming Greg at all. I just wanted him to see the unfair slant to the ruling. I understand that we had a vote, like we usually do, but no one, including me, foresaw this happening.

Secondly, I did not realize it was proposed by him, so all my rants were not a personal affront to him, but I apologized, in private, to him if he took it that way.

I just wanted him to see, as a commissioner, how unjust this ruling was. Of course this is all in hindsight, but no one could have foreseen this kind of outcome. Greg had good intentions, but this clearly is not fair. Even if it were someone else's team, I would say this needs to be changed immediately.

I know that we all have good intentions, and we are always trying to improve the league, that's the type of makeup we have in the Nutbars league. Greg and Matt know how much I appreciate the job they do, and how I value this league. I liked it so much I created another league like this, but with the original manifesto rules in place. That's how much I enjoy this league. I don't want to see it lose any of it's integrity by something that could not have been foreseen.

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Fire & Fury

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 9:45

One way to keep teams interested throughout the playoffs is perhaps have small prizes for 3rd and 4th. No need to get crazy, and most importantly, some teams just have to lose, that's that. If a team is not good enough to win, they are not good enough to win. They should learn to draft better, trade better, make pick ups better or buy the PrimePucks Fantasy Draft Guide, lol.

I don't doubt that anyone here would jeopardize the league by doing something like tanking. And if they did, the commmissioner and/or co-commissioners of the league would take care of it. We don't need some complicated rule to handle that. That's why we have the "Butchie" rule. The commissioner's took care of that problem and they can take care of future problems.
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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 11:00

I agree that we need to change this going forward.

simple is better like matt said!

however did you guys just realize now how the seeding works? we did vote on this, and had months to clarify any issues or concerns.

that being said im fine with whatever the majority decides for this years draft order. if I were the commish I would stick to what the league has voted on (even with its flaws).

however im not the commish and would like a peaceful league so like I said im down with whatever the rest of you guys want.





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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 11:12

before this happened I was thinking of what to propose interms of draft order/tie breakers.

I think this is the most simple way to do it:

standings goes by winning percentage and any seeding tie breakers would see the team with most total points be seeded higher in the standings than the team with the lower amount of total points.


then for the draft we just go in reverse. 10th place gets 1st overall , 9th place gets 2nd overall etc....

im also down for allowing ties and not go to a goal tie breaker for the weekly matchup should this occur
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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 11:15

after we determine how we want the draft order to be this year, and going forward (along with seeding tie breakers) we can look at how many keepers and prospects each position will get
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 12:26

From my point of view, it's pretty clear that when this rule was voted on, the implications of it were not well understood. We had no precedent to say, "Yeah, that makes sense," or "No, that model doesn't seem to work very well." It may have sounded good in theory, but as everyone knows, there can be big discrepancies between theory and reality.

I like the idea of keeping the draft order simple. Since we decide on playoff seeding based on what ESPN decides, why not do the same for draft order? It makes sense to me. If we decide to do that, draft order would simply be in reverse order of how teams finished the regular season.

Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 12:33

didn't we have an issue at the end of the reg season why one team finished ahead of another?

espns tie breakers are confusing. lets go simple
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Soo Storm

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 12:36

by simple I mean total points.

anyways ill be silent and wait for rest of league to get involved here
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 12:46

I think ESPN does award higher seeding to the team with the higher total points, so I think that would work for our purposes.
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Fire & Fury

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 13:15

Why can't we do what the NHL does? Bottom two lottery, then next eight depends on how far one team goes into the playoffs. Losing teams in playoffs get slotted according to record.

LA was probably the 16th seed going into the playoffs but got the 30 pick because they won. That's simple and everyone can follow since it's the same as we always have known it to be.
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 13:48

I am also fine with Ray's suggestion. Perhaps this is a compromise?
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Fire & Fury

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 14:39

If we chose to select the order the same way as the NHL, here is how it would play out.


1st overall Scott and 2nd to Jarrett determined by our tiebreaker of lowest total points against at the end of the regular season.

9th and 10th to John and Matt determined by the Kancho Cup championship finals.

That leaves 3 through 8

Regular Season Standings:

SS 7-4
DR 6-5
AT 5-6
PO 5-6
BCC 4-7
OSH 4-7

1st round playoff losses---SS, AT, BCC & OSH
1st round playoff winners-DR & PO as well as JUG & FS (determined already by Championship)

From the 4 1st round playoff losers, the order would be

3rd overall pick-OSH -lower total points against than BCC since they had the same record
4th overall-BCC
5th overall-AT
6th overall-SS

that leaves 7 & 8 between DR & PO who won 1st round matchup but lost 2nd round matchups.

Accordin to record---

7th overall-PO
8th overall-DR


In summary then;

1st-Scott
2nd-Jarrett
3rd-Chris
4th-Ray
5th-Scoop
6th-Brandon
7th-Gord
8th-Greg
9th-John
10th-Matt

To me, that looks more reaasonable according to what the regular season gave us.




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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 14:49

The regular season gives us a much larger sample size to work from to determine the performance of a team, so in my opinion it is best used to determine draft seeding.

If you had upset your opponent in round one Ray, and made it to the second round of the playoffs. Then lost in the second round and therefore missed out on prize money, would you be happy with either 7th or 8th overall pick?

Of course, one could argue that you got to play an extra round in the playoffs and, therefore, had a chance to make it to the big dance.

Wondering what your thoughts are?

Despite this, I think this method of determining seeding is much better than the version Greg suggested, and could probably be accepted by the majority. I'm in favour of using it if everybody else is fine with it's implications.
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Fire & Fury

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 15:49

If I won the first round of the playoffs and then lost in round 2, I probably would be selecting 7th or 8th and I would've been fine with that since my team had a chance to get to the finals. That would be more in line with what I thought the concept was to begin with.

Every year I try and win, regardless. Some years, like my first and this year, things just don't work out, que sera, sera. So I finished 8th or whatever. I realize in head-to-head in is luck of the draw and schedule, so it's better luck next year. The whole purpose of a reverse draft to help teams who have struggled to compete more the following year, I mean everyone who plays fantasy hockey knows that.

But my team wasn't good at all, perhaps I was biased in my opinion as I thought I had a great well-balanced team. I had a 4-7 record and lost not only in the first round of the playoffs, but all three rounds. Like I mentioned in an earlier message, if I had won the Kancho Cup, I would have been awarded the 3rd overall pick, and as a true blue & avid fantasy hockey player, I could not expect to gain such a high draft pick such as the third overall pick after winning the championship, and neither should any of you if are true fantasy hockey poolies.
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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 16:51

Well said, Ray. That makes sense to me.
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Desolation Row
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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 17:01

Well, this is one hot mess we find ourselves in isn't it.

That said, in situations such as this, I find that a little perspective can help in getting back on the right track.

1. Our Sun is not turning into a Red Giant next Tuesday at 12:00 EST.

2. There is no massive asteroid currently hurtling through space on a direct and imminent collision course with planet Earth.

3. Global Warming poses no threat to the survival of our species.

Um........well, two out of three ain't bad. I will let each GM select his two.

Now, onto the business at hand shall we.

There is no doubt that the current system has failed us. It produced an outcome that nobody predicted and I think that it is quite fair to say that the outcome was not what one would say is fair or healthy for the league. It had its upside (ie. removal of any incentive to lose, encouraged a high level of interest from start to finish), but it is a flawed system. I can see three possible options for us:

1. We do nothing. We stick with the vote and we address the issue in the offseason. I think that an argument can be made for this approach.

2. We revert to our previous system that served us reasonably well for years.

3. We introduce a new system, such as Ray's, and work forward from there.


I cannot comfortably go with Option 1. The results that the system produced were quite flawed and I think that they need to be dealt with.

I am uncomfortable going with Option 3. I think that it might require lengthy discussions to find a new system that everyone can agree on.

I am most comfortable with Option 2, but not 100%. We drafted in inverse order of regular season position and held keepers in a cascading format (10, 11, 12, 13, 14). I am OK with the draft order, but the number of keepers concerns me. I made decisions and trades with the assumption that I was holding 12. To reduce that to 11 at this late hour seems unfair. I am sure that there are others in the same position. Here is what I propose, for this season only, in an effort to put out the fire:

I propose a hybrid approach. We revert back to our old system for draft order (ie. inverse order of regular season finish), but our keepers remain more in line with the new system. 1st place holds 10, 2nd place holds 11, 9th and 10th place hold 13 and the mess in the middle hold 12.

We then can spend the rest of the offseason working on finding a long term solution to this situation so we must never again go through this nasty business again.

Yours lovingly
G



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Fitzsy Stars

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   03.05.13 21:04

Well said Mr. Chapler. I would certainly support such an approach. I would agree that holding the number of keepers based on the new system is a reasonable request, so long as the draft order is determined by way of the old system.
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Juggernauts

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BeitragThema: Re: And that's a wrap......   04.05.13 3:31

That was a lot of reading. I would vote for your first option Greg. I think that if we think we made a mistake we just accept it and change for the future... But not retroactively. Honestly, I still like your plan and I would vote for it again. But I'm sensing my value of 3rd pick to 8th pick is hugely different than other GMs in the pool. lol. I don't think it's that big of a deal and I like the idea of having the playoffs mean something. However, I do agree that if we want the worst teams to have the best draft picks in that 3rd to 8th levels, we have to change it.

I'm one of those that hate tanking but I didn't really see a huge value in tanking to go for 3rd pick over 4th pick anyway. I think we solved the tanking issue when we made everyone between 3rd to 8th have the same number of keepers.

My suggestion would be we keep everything the same except we just go with the regular season standing for draft order of players that finish between 3rd and 8th. Get rid of the playoffs for value in picking. But I would say that this should be for the following season. I feel we voted on your idea and we should have to live with the consequences.
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