Trade Etiquette

Hello Everyone,

Well, we are about half way through our first year at Nutbars and the general consensus seems to be that we have a very good thing going here. We have an active league with a high level of competition, and we have built a lot of camraderie over the last few months. That Ray would post a message about finding a Star Wars lego set on this forum and immediately have three or four GMs say they would look for the toy in their respective parts of the country speaks volumes to the distance we've come as a group.

Of course, there are always areas for improvement and over the last few weeks I've received minor complaints from several GMs about a few issues. Nothing major. More just minor issues in how trades should be approached. It seems trading is the hardest thing to reach consensus on because everyone has their own preferences, styles, and opinions. Sometimes these opinions can be quite strong.

So ... consider this thread as a means to gather ideas and reach a general consensus on what trade etiquette should be for Nutbars. Obviously there will be exceptions to these guidelines during periods where people are exceptionally busy, etc.

Here are a few points to consider. Any feedback would be useful:

1. When another GM sends an offer regarding a trade, what should be a reasonable length of time in getting back to that GM?

2. If a GM sends a trade offer that seems unreasonably lopsided (in your opinion), what is an appropriate response?

3. What should the rules be regarding offering and/or reneging on trade offers? Should an offer be considered final only after it has "officially" been offered and accepted in ESPN? Or should a trade offer be binding after an agreement is reached in the forum?

Again, please feel free to speak honestly about your feelings. Hopefully we can reach a consensus after we've heard from people, thereby allowing us to set some general guidelines. These guidelines will not be binding, but I think they will help us to understand how to run things more smoothly so that everyone's preferences can be respected.

Cheers,
Matt & Greg

I'll go first. I'd like to preface by saying something about me however. I found the number of people willing to deal with me go down. Which is understandable. I am a real stickler for what i want, and very unforgiving in some of my analysis on certain players. And I have a tendacy to send an extra PM if I haven't heard from you in a day or two. Just as a reminder.

I'd like to think that despite me driving a hard bargain, I can be reasonable given the fact that both my needs, as well as yours needs are met and respected. Very often I'll overvalue my players (we all do). But getting past the first few offers is key. And if you think I'm being unreasonable, tell me. I've had the chance to be told that by both our commishes at one point this season And I didn't get upset, I took the step back and realized that yes, some of my players aren't exactly what i'm making them out to be. What came out of this? I was able to come to a very reasonable agreement with both Matt and Greg on seperate occasions concerning trades and deals were worked out where we both won the trade. So please, just let me know if I'm being hard or difficult. I might just be trying to squeeze you and see what I can get

I'd also like to say one thing about Brandon, he's been super to deal with this year, and its always a treat to see a PM from him in the inbox.


Ok, so with my little story done, here is my .02

1. I think 1-2 days during the season, and a week during the offseason. For Draft days it should a few hours. Granted vacations are an exception, but anyone leaving should make it known. When i recieve a message from a GM I either respond right away, or I tell them I'll get back to them in 'X' hours/days. And I keep my word. I think that is the most important. I regularly check up on who has read my PMs, and I think its only fair that if I can make time to respond to you, or take the time to think out a trade offer, its only fair that I get a reasonable response, or atleast a PM telling me when they plan on getting back.

2. Tell them its lopsided. Be respectful, and say why it doesn't work for you. It can range from not liking a player, not needing a certain position. Or that I'm giving up far too many assets for an aging star. I think the worst thing to do is to ignore the person. He might not know what you know about certain players, or he might be over valuing his guys while undervaluing yours. And maybe his offer actually is good. Speak it out, and it gives both parties a chance to view things differently.

3. I think once a GM makes an offer, and the person accepts, its binding. None of this "it hasn't been accepted yet on ESPN." I've had this done three times this season, very frustrating, and it makes you not want to deal with the person in the future. If you aren't sure about giving up a player, tell the GM this isn't an official offer, and that you want his opinion on if he would accept it. Don't send the offer to only have the GM say yes. And then you go and change it to try and find his limit.

I've already got one PM from somebody who thought this thread was targeted at them. It's not. This is supposed to be an opportunity for constructive dialogue.

This is what I said to them:

"Please understand we're not trying to accuse anyone of anything here. Really we're just trying to come up with some general guidelines for trade response times, etc, so that the league can attempt to be on the same page."

No accusations are being made, and no offense is intended.

Peace!

I think we're all adults here (you're close enough red ) and if someone has a problem with the specifics of a certain trade they should be mature enough to respectfully respond to a fellow gm. There's nothing more disrespectuful than a sarcastic response to a trade offer, which often times can lead to larger problems within the group... (i.e. butch)

Neways, in regards to Jay's response, I usually check this message board when I'm at work so on occasion it may be a few days before I return a pm, same deal for summer months..

Cheers lads,
Mike

Yeah this is a bit of a tricky thing. Stuff happens, and people forget that they have trades sitting there. Or people will simply get busy or maybe even sit and think on things for a while.

I am as guilty as the next guy when it comes to trades and trying to get back to people on them, but I do try and at least give an update as to what I am thinking or that I AM at least thinking about things.

I havn't noticed many problems, so maybe it's me!

Gentlemen,

- We should expect that the completion of a trade is one of the difficult elements of making a trade. Having the other GM hit the 'Accept' button, is the final critical component of completing the deal. It is not unusual to get cold feet. Getting this achieved is just one of the steps in the process.
- Frustration is allowed. It is normal. It is healthy.
- Good trade offers get declined.
- Trades don't get responses because there is no interest, lots of interest and the party doesn't know where to turn next to finish the arrangement, people forget, people are busy, people are away. Don't be afraid to cover yourself and say that the deal is only good for the next few days (until Jan 15) and don't be afraid to send out another note rescinding the offer.
- Stubborness. Owners decline trades because they are stubborn. I have received some outstanding offers this year for Kane, Heatley, Hossa (in particular). OUTSTANDING OFFERS. That only means I want my guy as much as the other guy wants him. We're busy managing risk for our clubs. As such, opinions vary greatly.
- Early this year, I offered Razor a 2nd in January for Campoli. By the time Razor was inclined, Campoli was injured, so I wasn't inclined. Then Campoli got healthy. I sent Razor a note. He wasn't inclined. Now I wouldn't be inclined. This is all very normal. If we had caught each other at the right moment the transaction might have occurred. We sniffed all around it, but managed to miss out on the completion. Yes from Razor. Yes from SCOOP. But never at the same time. One of the responses, I sent him an accept, but it was a month later. He pointed out that too much time had passed. This was very fair on his part. I had looked at the offer and despite a month passing, I had responed Yes. A touch unfair on my part. Perhaps I was trying to guilt him into the trade.

Trading is hard. We should expect some frustrations as part of the process. We shouldn't take the responses we get personally either. I don't really believe anyone is trying to offend the other managers. Breathe deeply. Count to 10! Try to be polite! Give it the "MOM TEST".

Should I do it? Should I say it? If I can't tell my Mom, then the answer is no!

SCOOP

As always Scoop you have offered a healthy dose of veteran perspective. Trading is probably the most difficult (and at times frustrating) part of fantasy hockey.

I've been pretty lucky this year. I've had trade conversations with every GM, and I've found dealing with everyone to be fine. But I may have caught everyone at opportune moments.

Life gets busy, especially for those of you with children. Sometimes trade offers are forgotten and that's understandable. The GM who is intent on following up a trade may have to be polite but persistent. That sounds reasonable.

However, I was wondering if we might lay down a "general" guideline of trying to respond to trade offers within three days during the regular season and perhaps 7-10 days during the off-season. Sometimes this won't be possible (really busy, vacation), but if you're crunched for time and would like to further consider the trade a short message of "I'm really busy right now, but I'll get back to you next week (or ASAP)" might go a long way.

If you're not interested, a short "I'm not looking to trade at the moment" is fine.

I should also say that the GM who has made the trade offer shouldn't expect the GM he's sent the offer to to get into long and detailed trade negotiations. I know Jay was saying that he kind of likes the bartering back and forth, but that may not interest the other GM at that time. Or it may not be the other GM's style. In which case, the GM making the offer will have to respect that the second GM doesn't want to play the barter game at the moment.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. Looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say.

While I agree with you that the final nail into the deal is hitting the accept button. When someone proposes the trade to you, and drives it hard. Once that offer is accepted by the other GM, to me, its as good as done. Mainly because that's how I am. I've had a trade that I didn't end up wanting to make moments after saying yes, but once I said yes, to me it was done, I didn't go back on it. But there is also a completely different side to it. Let say I was driving hard for Hossa, and I kept making offers, finally I've thrown so much at Scoop and Red that they finally accept, well, if they later take the time to evaluate the trade, I think they should be able to decline. But if he's offering me Hossa for a week, and I finally bite. Then yes, he becomes mine. And I don't think any of this should be policed by anyone. I think this part of trading should remain in the minds of GMs making trades, don't offer anything you aren't ready to deal. No one wastes their time.

I don't think anyone is trying to upset people on purpose, but I think what matt had intended for in the thread to so that everyone knows what level field each and every GM is on.

Regarding your 4th point. Personally I have no problem with people who are busy and can't check their PMs. What bothers me is when I know my PM has been read, and there hasn't been a response for four days (just as an example). If someone doesn't know what to do next, who to offer, or simply not interested...just tell the guy. No need to leave him hanging for so many days without a response. For instance, I know that Mike doesn't log on very often, so when I send a PM to him, I don't expect an answer within 48 hours. However, if I send a PM to Brandon, and I see that he's online a few hours later. I'd like to hear back from him atleast within the next day or two. Lets not fool ourselves into saying we are too busy, a response can range anywhere from five seconds to a few minutes. But if we do happen to not have five minutes to type something out, just let the other person know. I think its a lot better, it shows you atleast acknowledge him, the guy isn't left wondering.

I'd also like to let everyone know that my posts might not make sense. I'm already running on fumes by noon. I need some sleep, lol.

So many variables go into trading, it's almost limitless. I agree that responses should be forthcoming promptly especially if one has read the proposal. We all know when our messages have been read, so a response should be immediate. A yes, no or "maybe let me think about it" should be suffice.

The question is how long should a GM have to ponder a proposal. I think that unless the trade was agreed upon, the "proposing" GM has the right to continue to shop said players until a firm agreement is in hand. You know pretty much if you are interested in a trade proposal right away or not. Or at leaast know it's something that you are willing to negotiate, just let the other GM know, but also understand that the GM might be entertaining other offers/proposals. Why should the "proposing" GM be handcuffed in trying to better his team by waiting for someone's response. Unless both GMs state that the deal is done, they should not have a beef if the players are traded to another team.

Everyone should understand that people have other things in their lives besides hockey(only kidding!). During the season, I don't think it's unreasonable for everyone to check the boards at least every other day unless on vacation, or shacked up with Charlize for a week. Common courtesy would be 12 hours to wait for a response being that this has been a pretty active league, but not necessary. IF a GM changes his mind or something player related occurs to change or retract a proposal before a "definite" deal is procured, then que sera, sera.

During the summer/off-season, a weeks wait would be courteous enough.

Trading is a chance taken by both parties and so are the consequences leading up to a completed trade. Snooze you lose. The tortoise always wins the race. Which is better? Is the glass is half full or half empty? Who knows, but as Scoop says, try not to takes things too personal. Keep it fun!

Razor

when im trying to make a deal i usually state if this is not an official offer, or if it is. if i says its official than i stick with my word unless i send another msg rescinding the offer. however i think that even if the deal is agreed upon in the forum it isn't offical until it has been accepted on the ESPN site. so for example that 2 gm's agreed on a deal and one sent the other an offer over espn, but the other gm was sleeping and when the awoke to find the player that they were going to get is injured then they wont accept the trade. however with me i would stick with my word (i think??) and accept because i said it was OFFICIAL, however if it isn't accepted on the site than it is not OFFICIAL to everyone else. it is the others gm responsiblity to get the other gm to go on the site and accept it, thus becoming OFFICAL TO THE LEAGUE.

as for msg response time you don't have to worry about me, i think i have an average response time of about 10 minutes lol. however i feel 3 days max during the season an offer shoudl be sent out and not have gotten a reply. even if the reply is im really busy and cannot get back to you this week. and in the summer i agree same thing goes except make it 7 days, however of course there are other priorities we have, but checking the site once a week isn't that much to ask.

as for trading styles, do your own thing, just be honest with the other GM. also with people who are having problems with trades should speak up in the public forum to allow the other people to defend their position and it will allow for people to talk out their problems instead of PM greg or matt, who have busy schedules as it is.

Thanks for the words from both Brandon and Razor. Good points all of them.

The only one I'm not 100% sold on is Brandon's idea to bring trade disputes into the public forum so that said GMs can defend their positions. I think trade disputes should ideally be resolved between GMs privately, or by getting me and Greg involved if it gets out of hand.

Butch tried to deal with a trade dispute publicly and it didn't work very well. LOL.

Cheers,
Matt

lol. Hey, we got Joel out of it. While I'm not proud of what happened, I would do it again if it meant getting that dude out and bringing Joel in. He had a bad vibe from day 0.

I think we're all in agreement there. Butch was not a good fit from Day One.

I just meant that dealing with a trade dispute in a public forum is not the best way to resolve an issue. It just gets everyone's back up and can escalate an issue that may otherwise be quite minor.

I agree with that as well. I was just making a crack

I know i'm guilty of reading PM's at work then i get busy and forget to respond and might not respond for a day or two, I personally will make the attempt to correct this and i apoloigize for this. I think that we have a great group of guys here and most problems can be figured out by the GM's themselves, obviously we all have different styles (i'm a chickenshit when it comes to trades and usually say no, always think its the wrong move) but i think we have a good idea by now who does what most of the time and can deal with with whatever conflict we might have.

As far as im concerned a trade is a done deal once both parties say yes, again we are all adults and our word should be good enough, hitting accept on ESPN is just a formality to me. If a situation occurs were both parties agree and one changes his mind and wont hit accept then i think we cross that bridge when we get there because no rule will cover all the circumstances for why this may happen.

I think with the group we have instances such as these will be few and far between.Also i think 1-3 days is fair in responding to a PM once it has been opened and a quick note like others have said to let the other guy know you are thinking it over is fair.

The right move is giving me back Getzlaf!!! Dooooooo it!

with that said, I don't think you or anyone needs to apologize, no one did anything wrong. We are just trying to set a standard

butch is probabley stocking this site and reading this msg right now!

LOL i wish i would have talked to him a bit more when he was in the league he was fine with me the few words i had with him but he sounds like he was quite the character.

Thankfully Gregger froze Butch out.

Anybody that's not registered with Nutbars can access the site anymore. It was probably him a couple of months ago stalking the site as Capone.

i think you can access it. it says that guests are logged in sometimes at the bottom, and bots like google and yahoo show up

So I finally weigh in.
So first off I want to say that I am sure I have been infuriating to trade with or even deal with at times. Reading over the grievances I know I am personally guilty of most of them. This is my first time in a keeper league and my first time trading with people who are not in my immediate circle of family and friends and I must apologize for any stresses I have caused. I am hoping that I will be a better more reliable person in the New Year. But anywhoo I will go onto my thoughts.

Here are a few points to consider. Any feedback would be useful:

1. When another GM sends an offer regarding a trade, what should be a reasonable length of time in getting back to that GM?

I have been really bad here in that I was barely online for about a month or so and I am sure I had been messaged. However I think that 1-3 days would be a good measure of time during the season and 1 week or so outside of the season. I think that we all understand that there will be times and circumstances that keep people busy but as Ray said generally you know if you would be into an offer or not.

2. If a GM sends a trade offer that seems unreasonably lopsided (in your opinion), what is an appropriate response?

I agree with Jay here in that you should just decline and say why the deal doesn't work for you. I think communication is paramount.

3. What should the rules be regarding offering and/or reneging on trade offers? Should an offer be considered final only after it has "officially" been offered and accepted in ESPN? Or should a trade offer be binding after an agreement is reached in the forum?

I have been guilty here too and this one I personally find to be the most tricky. There are lots of factors - cold feet, player becomes injured, receive new offer from other GM, too much time elapsed from time of offer etc. that make this hard. For that reason I myself would not be opposed to having it so that offers made over ESPN are "official" but that is my view.

I do want to point out that Joel wrote a very very good piece on trading on the dobber forums that can be found

here

That is my thoughts however late and misguided they are,

Cheers,

-Keegan

Hey Keegan,

Thanks for the feedback. Better late than never.

Cheers,
Matt